Advice needed on how to properly ditch a husky with larger tires!

Hello all, I do a lot of flying around the Northeast and a good deal of that is over the water on the way to Martha’s Vineyard Nantucket or Block Island. I often think about an engine out scenario over the water and how I would approach ditching the airplane. I have 26 inch good year tires on the plane so Believe I don’t want to approach the water at any real forward speed as these tires would most likely act as brakes and just flip the plane over (but I don’t know) Another thought of mine is that I would simply stall the plane all the way down as a leaf, oscillating stalls, and hopefully just plop the plane up right on the water and jump out. These are all real fun thoughts, and I do have lifevests and just got a raft as I’ll be flying to Oshkosh over Lake Michigan, but I’m very curious as to what you all as husky experts would do to safely put the plane on top of the water with the least energy in the most gentle manner if there is such a thing! Thanks in advance !
 

trapper

Well-Known Member
The way I was taught is the only thing you can do is get the most energy off of the plane that is possible and pray!!!!!
 

Ak Kurt

Well-Known Member
Raj,

If you do the stall/falling leaf into the water you will die. If you ditch in the middle of Lake Michigan, you will die. Ok, maybe I should say you will more than likely die. Hate to be so blunt but DO NOT fly across Lake Michigan, there is a lot of cold water there even in July. The Lake Michigan shoreline around Chicago is a fun flight, I do it often. As far as going to Block Island and MV, fly as high as you can, say at least 10,000' or more or what ever altitude is required so you can glide to the other side. Take into consideration headwind/tailwind and the altitude an 180 degree turn will cost you in the event you have to return to the shore behind you.

Some people don't take seriously enough the dangers of flying over water. Unless you execute the ditching perfectly you will probably knock yourself out, not be able to exit the airplane and die. I have lost friends in water.

Now, if you are still inclined to fly over water in which you will not be able to make the suitable landable shore line you need to practice power off landings. Get good at them, practicing at idle will be ok for training purposes. Start on downwind and move the throttle to idle, fly base and final at idle power. Extend full flaps and practice 3 point landings, preferably with the tailwheel touching first, if you are actually ditching, you want to hit the water as slow as possible, this simulates this. Remember, no power allowed in these practice landings. Notice I said 3 point and not "full stall", in all my years of flying I have never landed an airplane that the wing was fully stalled upon touch down. The only thing I have ever landed in which the wing was fully stalled is a high performance hang glider and that took an aggressive flare to accomplish. I wish this term would go away, it is about as stupid as the term "air pocket" and "tail spin". Anyway enough of that rant.

Once you get very proficient at these power off landings you will have a better idea what is required to make a sucessful ditching. Now, since the Husky lands slower than most, your chances of survival is better than in most airplanes. Your Bushwheel's will help a little but don't count on much help, the water will be rough and any sort of "waterski" effect will be non existent.

Before you can use life vests and rafts you need to keep from getting knocked unconscious in the ditching. Getting out will be a very stressful thing bordering on panic. Have you gone thru a ditching training seminar? If not, you should. Getting to a raft behind you will be almost impossible. Your chances are slim and if the water is anything but warm you will have exposure and hypothermia issues to contend with while you are floating in the water. Your life vest did inflate didn't it? Hope it didn't get punctured or damaged on the way out of the sinking airplane. Do you have your beacon with you on your person? I think by now you get my point, don't fly over water unless you can glide to shore. By the way, 3 blade MT props really cut down on glide angle/ratio over other props, great props but not for extending your glide.

Now, all of that being said, there have been many successful ditching's but the chances are stacked against you. Do you feel lucky? You have to weigh the risks vs the reward. Many people have flown over water for years without a problem however I for one avoid it. Sorry to be so blunt but trying to give you the honest truth about flying over water and what can happen in the event of an engine failure or other problem that will require a ditching.

Kurt

PS, Raj, glad you are thinking about these things and glad you asked, that is how we learn. Have fun, fly safe!
 
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JACK

Active Member
I think AK Kurt pretty much said it all. If you fly over the Great Lakes and you can't glide to shore, you might as well be flying over the ocean. As he said, you will probably die if the engine quits. I haven't seen it done in a tail dragger, but my guess is you're going to end up upside down and banged up pretty badly from the impact. Do you think you'll be able to exit the aircraft upside down? IF you are lucky enough to make it out of the aircraft you will be in COLD water and hypothermia will set in pretty quickly. Your arms and legs will become useless as your body shuts down trying to preserve core temperature. Does anyone know where you are? Is anyone on the way to pull your (expletive deleted) out of the water?

An acquaintance of mine was flying over one of the Great Lakes in WINTER of all things with a factory new engine in a Cherokee. A rod went through a cylinder. They were able to glide to an airport that just happened to be right on the shoreline without putting a scratch on the airplane. I still don't believe they realize how lucky they were....

Don't do it.

My 2 cents worth.
 
Oh man, I’m sorry I asked! Thank you both for the great advice. Let me just say that I have been flying around the Northeast for over 20 years and flying to Martha’s Vineyard and Block Island and Nantucket is part of my weekly mission. Yes, I fly as high as I can and calculate my gliding distance and all of that. At least in the Northeast even at 5500 feet I’ll be within a the shore and I always try to hug the shore as much as possible. Flying over Lake Michigan I plan (ed) to do it at 11,000 feet plus, obviously without oxygen thinking through that process, so there’s a window where the engine quits and only in that window will you not be able to make it to the shore. So this leads me to another question, I generally calculate 2 miles for every thousand feet as a glide distance in the husky. Obviously taking into account wind direction etc. etc., is that what most people calculate as well? OK so now that you have both sufficiently depressed me, is there any other input from the forum!?
 
And then I guess let me throw one other element into the equation, it’s all about worrying about an engine failure. If I’m worried about an engine failure, which obviously I am and we all should be, then I should never fly at night nor should I ever fly IFR. I would rather have an engine failure over the water then at night right? I guess when I’m trying to rationalize is the odds of an engine failure, because when it comes down to it what we’re doing is really playing the odds as we do every day when we go into our car and drive.
 

trapper

Well-Known Member
Well said Kurt. I advice stopped at just praying as I agree its a slim chance to survive even in warm water. I fly the cpast of California often but always at a conservative glide ratio. Even thats a risk but my kids are raised!
 

belloypilot

Active Member
Thanks for raising this, Raj. I have aspirations of taking my Husky to Iceland one day and have been getting similar advice, albeit balanced with some less pessimistic input as well. There are floatation suits out there that aren’t as torturous to wear as a full on survival suit that I think would do a lot of good. I’ve been looking at one-person chest pack rafts too. As Kurt pointed out, egress is everything. Balance that off with ‘if it ain’t on your person you might as well not have it with you’ and the challenge becomes having enough stuff to survive but not so much you can’t get out in time.

Dunk tank egress training in a fully articulated cage is available. They start you out strapped into a seat, right side up and in warm water. By the time they are done with you you’re upside down and damn cold. I haven’t don it yet but I will before trying anything serious over water. I’ve been told that will cure me of my piston single North Atlantic ambitions.

I’ve done plenty of night IFR and VFR over pretty sparsely populated country. Not the same level of risk as the Great Lakes or North Atlantic in my opinion. I think 1000’ ceilings and synthetic vision buy a lot of options. If that’s not good enough, FLIR is an option. Not something you should routinely bet your life on, but I’m sure it beats the hell out of 30’ swells off the coast Greenland. Or even 10’ wells in the middle of Lake Michigan, I would guess.
 
Ok so last year I skimmed the southern part of Lake Michigan and flew over Chicago class b staying within glide distance of shore at 10k This time was going to to do mason county to KLDW staying out of MOA but now rethinking it all and probably going to do the same route last year - ! Anyone want to buy a brand spanking new 2 person raft! Again - what do you all plan as glide ratio. I have the 80inch Hartzell. Just want to know if 2 miles for every 1000 feet is approximately right depending of course on winds.
 

Ak Kurt

Well-Known Member
Raj,

Seriously, I am glad you asked the question. Im sorry if I was a bit blunt but I really wanted to hammer the point home. I dont want you or anyone else to get hurt or killed, I have already seen too much of that.

I fly over lake Michigan every day I am at work. I do this in a Boeing 787 Dreamliner which has an incredible glide ratio for something that is not a sailplane. When out in the middle of the lake between 15 to 20,000' I think that I would be hard pressed to make shore if both engines quit and that is in an incredibly efficient airplane! Trust me when I say, you can't get high enough in a Husky to make shore from the middle of the lake. You will get wet. As far as IFR and night flying single engine, in those situations you at least have a fighting chance but still there is more risk than day VFR.

And as to wearing a survival suit, if you survive the impact and are not knocked and can get out you do have better odds of survival than not wearing one but you still have an uphill to climb, odds are not in your favor.

Just fly around the lake at 1,500' AGL following the beach, its a fun flight and it won't cost you much time.

Keep the questions coming.

Kurt
 

Ak Kurt

Well-Known Member
I think 2 miles for every one thousand feet is optomistic, however, I may be wrong. I say go out and do some experimenting and see what YOUR airplane does.

Kurt
 

tbienz

Well-Known Member
Thankfully I have never had to ditch the Husky so I have no personal experience with how to land on water and stay upright. I’ve heard of people doing emergency landings in deep snow by getting as slow as possible in a tail-low configuration and dragging the tailwheel in the deep snow as they plop down and keeping the shiny side up.
I have done lots of waterskiing in my plane and occasionally a waterski to beach roll-on. The plane seems really stable and doesn’t seem to start settling through the water until around 30mph indicated. So for me the plan is to open the window and door, cinch the belts as tight as possible, touch down on the mains at 70-75mph and ski (at that speed it will ride like concrete). As the plane slows and feel like it is settling, I’ll yank the stick back and drive the tailwheel into the water as an anchor...still might go over, but I think that’s the best bet at doing so with minimal forward energy. I have 31” tires with very low pressure and they may simulate a boat hull better than a GY26, not sure.
 

JimC01

Member
>>I have done lots of waterskiing in my plane and occasionally a waterski to beach roll-on.<<

So, when waterskiing, are you supposed to have feet ON brakes OR OFF. I have heard it both ways.

I flight plan 11/2 miles per 1000 feet. But really, somewhere between 1 and 11/2 is what I will have to work with, IMHO.
 
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KURT -- 2 Things: 1) Blunt is good, Blunt is clear and leaves no room for interpretation Blunt works! and 2) You have the coolest day job!

Thank you hammering the point home in graphic detail. You all are the best! Going back to the old route keeping is close on the shore Over or Under Chicago! Thomas, your approach seems sound, assuming there are no waves! I think the main take away is getting tail in water first. I primarily do 3 points and practice engine outs so that would be the protocol -- BTW -- going to KOSH and would love to meet up with a bunch of Husky flyers! I'll post something about this later - trying to talk Stu into hosting a keg under the Husky tent, but have not heard back yet -

route.jpg
 

tbienz

Well-Known Member
Brakes on or off makes no difference when waterskiing. Holding brakes invites error as you touch the dirt under water when approaching the beach so I’d recommend against it. Locking the brakes also invites error if you forget when you’re done playing on the water which would make for a very bad day on the runway later.
 

tbienz

Well-Known Member
On the Oshkosh thing, I’ll be there from Sunday to Wednesday. Stu was up at the Root Ranch fly-in this weekend and said he was going to be there. Not sure about the keg though!
 

Ak Kurt

Well-Known Member
Raj,

I live on a nice grass strip 9 miles NW of Kalamazoo, Michigan. That is almost on your route. Stop by either direction. That goes for the other Husky guys and gals out there too.

Kurt
Newman field
4N0 (zero)
 

belloypilot

Active Member
Nate Jaros, a fellow who hangs out on the Beechtalk forum occasionally, has a great book called 'Engine Out Survival Tactics'. Some useful and easy to remember techniques for estimating your glide distances and methods for practicing.

I agree with the 1 1/2 mile per 1000' estimate, but it doesn't take much in the way of less than perfect technique to scrub a bunch of that performance off.

I'd love to see Thomas demo his water skiing technique some time, but any place I fear ditching probably wouldn't lend itself to anything other than nose high and hit the drink with as little forward speed as possible. When I nosed over in a peat bog last summer I saw first hand how the tail can come up abruptly with a sudden stop with < 5 mph forward speed. I fear I wouldn't have much luck keeping it right side up in the water and have concluded any ditching survival plan needs to assume upside down and sinking fast. Which is why I still haven't seen Iceland. Yet.
 
Raj,

I live on a nice grass strip 9 miles NW of Kalamazoo, Michigan. That is almost on your route. Stop by either direction. That goes for the other Husky guys and gals out there too.

Kurt
Newman field
4N0 (zero)


KURT -- thank you so much - ! Ok, will work on getting this in the route! --
 

groshel

Active Member
Regarding glide ratio...couple of years ago Aviat hosted a webinar to discuss issues...one topic was glide ratio..someone at the company admitted to 6:1...which was probably with a Trailblazer or MT.

Tom D suggests pulling the prop back if you have oil pressure and gaining quite a few points of glide.

Did flight crew stuff across the N. Atlantic in large cabin biz jet stuff for a couple decades....got some pool training time ....but I can’t swim a lick.

Always figured if the pilots could get it down in one piece there “might” be a chance of getting out “ if” the cabin E windows or doors didn’t distort at a 130 kt touchdown in swells... just got to get that 14 person raft thru a 26” oval window...and get in...and cut loose...probably at night .....that’s all!

Did OSH in a Mooney across Lake Michigan with a friend once at 10k....had about 10 minutes of pure uncomfortable when I started realizing where I was.

So you can imagine how I go to OSH? Indiana and Illinois are one big grass runway.
 
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