Bushwheels in Snow

[Zac Johnson]

It looks like the snow is already here to stay in Alaska. This being my first winter as a Husky owner, I thought I'd see if I could get a bit of advice.

1) I'm almost certainly going to put skis on my pup this winter, but in the meantime I was curious to hear how much snow my 31" bushwheels can handle? I am by no means a daring pilot, so I'm looking for a conservative estimate.

2) Any recommendations on a particular type or make of heater for pre-warming the cabin? Will that and the factory installed engine block heater be sufficient for preheating?

3) Does it make sense to leave a prop cover on a synthetic prop? If not, what would you recommend for removing frost from it?

4) Any other tips or tricks for flying in winter?

Thanks for the info!

Cheers,
Zac

 

[lowlevelops]

Question 1) The honest answer is it depends, maybe 4" or maybe as much as 12" of snow. Snow conditions are the determining factor. Almost guarentee you will end up upside down at some point landing in snow with unknown conditions and depth.

Question 2) Any ceramic heater will be fine.

Question 3) I have no idea, I have never used a propellor cover.

Question 4) Dress like your walking, because you just might be by the end of the day.

 

[Snowbirdxx]

Zac,

flying with Tires in unknown snow is a risk. Thats why skis are for. With tires you really need to know snow condition. Depth, hardness, crust...etc

Since that can vary from one place to another just 2 miles apart, consider snow conditions as unknown. I remember somebody had that question before on the list forum years ago. MikeV and I warned him, but he answered, that all the landings went fine. 2 weeks later the Husky was flipped over.

Now, if you use a runway covered even with 2" or 4" of fresh powder snow and use the 31" BW, that will work on the first day after snowfall.
On day 2 with maybe some above freezing temps in between, your tracs may be frozen and the plane will go exactly the way it went the day before. It will be hard to leave the tracs, except towards the sky on takoff.

Be aware that snow tends to even out surfaces, which even on 31" tires may be harmful.

We do not preheat the cabin, but have heated seats installed. Almost instant warm seats after engine startup. The installation of these heaters is simple. Run a switched 12 V cable under the seats. Open the Zippers of the seatcushions and insert the heat elements, which gets plugged into the 12V cable. No approval for the heaters needed since they are not attached to the airframe.

No need for Propcovers on the MT prop to make preheat work. On a All metal Hartzell, you need prop insulation. For frost protect any trashbag is fine.

Any preheater should work if the engine is covered and it is switched on for 12 hrs.
Immagine you are heating 300 lbs of Aluminum and steel with a 1200 Watt heater. So do not expect miracles in 1 or 2 hrs.

Have a snowshovel and a rope on board. I carry in addition 2 sets of Snowshoes. And 2 dark trashbags.

Never attemp to land on fresh snow in flat light, you barly have depth reception. If tracs are present, you may be able to see them inon short short final. If no tracs are there, throw the trashbag out on a low approach at the place you want to land. It will give you a bit of an idea, how high you are. Collect trashbag after landing.

Flying the early hours in the day is much safer. SAR has more light to pic you up.

Have winter cloth on board and a sleeping bag and a couple of Hershey bars for protection and hunger just in case....

Cover your oilcooler inlet by 3/4 or have the variable door installed.

Always leave a trac with someone reliable whom you tell where you are going to.

Have the carb heat pulled to start engine. The first few revs will heat up the muffler and you will have immediatly a richer mixture to warm up the engine. After 2-3 minuter, close carbheat. In some cases it may be necessary to enrich idle mixture a bit to avoid engine stoppage at below 1000 RPM.


You can look at our winter flying pics at rf-skis.com or https://picasaweb.google.de/ThomasPDietrich

 

[Zac Johnson]

Thanks for the tips. For the record, I have absolutely no intention of going exploring while my plane is on wheels. I was thinking more about whether I should feel comfortable using the gravel strip with a couple inches of snow on it, or opt for the plowed pavement.

I like that idea about heating the seats. I will definitely give that some thought. I know my girlfriend would certainly be in favor.

 

[joemcd]

Zac,
Last year I started tracking my landings in the snow. I will not do anything crazy and I will seldom land anywhere in the snow if I can't walk it first. I live in the Midwest so that is much more feasible for me than it is for you. I have a A1-B on 26" Goodyears. About the only good data I got was from some early snows. 4" of very light, fluffy snow was easily handled. A few miles north of there, a friend's strip had a wind blown crust on top of the 4". The deceleration with the crust was probably twice of that in the fluffy snow. All this really proved to me was that it would not take much snow that is crusty to wreck your day. Have fun in AK.
Joe

 

[Meadowlark]

Do Not......... DO NOT......... expect big tires to save your ass in snow conditions. The absoute worst is a dead light condition. I thought I was OK in a dead light condition to taxi onto deep snow......... WRONG! That is exactly how you get your prop to whack the ground after you nose over! Big tires can get you into more trouble than 8.50's.

I bought 2 children's sleeping bags to cover the prop blades. Tuck the excess into the cowl holes.

J/C GTF

 

[Snowbirdxx]

Zac,

If I can help yyou out with the heat elements, I can go and get some. We have a Seat manufacturer here that produces seats for a known German Sports car made in Stuttgart. Heating elements have a rethostat for overheating protection. If I recall right price 3 years ago was around 50€ each. Weight about 60 Gramms each.
You would have to run 12 V switched to the seat bottoms and get 4 pair of plugs /connectors that go on the cables and on the cables of the elements. All 4 go through a 15A breaker. The draw is 3 Amps per element while heating.
I am using them since 1995 with no regret.
There are on Top seat heat covers available. Plug into the 12V cigarettlighter outlet. Very poor quality and it is a mess having all these cables in the cockpit. Had them before for 2 month but after ripping the cable off twice, went for the good stuff. I hate electrical smell...


Tom

 

[mvivion]

Most suppliers/installers of aftermarket automotive parts stock seat heat elements. That's where we got ours. Worked fine, and good quality.

Mike

 

[bumper]

Here's some good ones on Amazon. They are carbon type element, two position switch, and work well - - I've installed 4 of them so far. The two position switch is all I need. Turn on high for warm up (which is almost immediate), then switch to low to maintain. The pads use carbon filiments for the heating element and can be cut as needed if a shorter pad is required.

[ame]http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002QYAL2U/ref=oh_o00_s00_i00_details[/ame]

I also have a pair of the ones from TomD that work fine as well. But, I prefer the ones listed above by a small margin.

Note that the ones above work by having the three position switch, hi-lo-off, control two relays. In the high position, each heating pad, back and butt, get twelve volts across them as they are connected in parallel. In the lo position, the relay connects the two pads in series, so each gets only 6 volts. Fairly simple, and so far reliable. the relays are the common Bosch 35 amp plug in type, available pretty much anywhere should there be a problem with one.

bumper

 

[fliegenhund]

most of the points were well-covered by Snowbird. RE shovel, I would buy a folding shovel of the kind used by backcountry skiers, small and light, carried by REI, Backcountry.com, MountainGear etc.

I have made hundreds of landings on 31's in a variety of snow conditions and it really is a lot like skiing, with the difference that you are not so concerned about stability of the snowpack but rather consistency. Dry light snow on top of a harder surface at cold temps is no problem at axle depth. Wind slab or crust is much trickier and in most cases not worth the risk unless you've been able to walk the landing area first and get comfortable with the conditions. Wet snow is only manageable at lower depths. In most of the conditions where you would expect rapid deceleration, I'd try to arrive with minimum energy. Attached picture is from a couple of weeks ago after the pre-Halloween snowstorm in the NE. temps in the low 60's that day so snow was quite wet.

 

[bumper]

Some wheels n' snow somersaults would be prevented by full throttle and full stick back as the mains enter the snow . . . with the emphasis on "some".

bumper

 

[fliegenhund]

true. it's also OK to touch down slightly tailwheel first (only in soft sand or snow, however). as Bumper suggests, stick needs to come back hard and stay there as soon as the mains touch, power as needed to keep the nose up. after many low-energy arrivals (40 mph IAS) with this technique in heavy, wet snow, crust/slab conditions and deeper dry snow, I haven't yet felt the tail get light. like a lot of things, however, it's all good until suddenly it's not, and that risk can't be separated from off-airport flying, only managed.

 

[Raven]

Winter has arrived with full force here in the Canadian Rockies and with back country grass options increasingly buried I am concerned about wear on my ABW 31" on plowed asphalt. To be honest I also find the little traction of these big tires makes for sporty taxing on snowy wet grass especially close to snowbanks. This makes my MT prop nervous. I just don't have the experience of operating ABW 31 on asphalt and the actual wear involved. I have Goodyear 8.5 x 6 as an option and wondering if it is wise to switch for winter? Thoughts and suggestions welcome, thank you.

 

[Gust Kalatzes]

For a couple months I didn’t find it worth the effort, but if winter restricts you for 3 - 4 months I’d change them. I wouldn’t try and land in much snow with 8.50’s but would do 3-4 inches “depending on crust” with the 31’s. Around here the snow doesn’t last that long most years if I go south 30 min so maybe a month or two. After doing the change a few times early on for that short of period it just wasn’t worth it to me and they were on a spare set of wheels...without the spare wheels it would really be a PITA.

Mine have lasted 10 plus years and about 700-800 hours...others have not been as lucky. I run 12 psi typically so I can get it in the hanger and if my memory is correct they say to air up a little if your landing on asphalt a lot. If out in the backcountry for several days I’ll put hem down to 8. Mine are getting close now but I don’t feel like they owe me anything.

If you can avoid the asphalt (dirt next to the runway, etc.)and particularly long taxi then you will get better or longer wear. They do slide on snow and ice, but I can’t say they are better or worse than other tires because I’ve had them on so long. I don’t go looking for cross winds with snow and ice on the runway either.

31’s are obviously very expensive so if you have the ambition and your staying with asphalt for a few months, change them.

850’s can do most any strip I land on but they don’t keep the prop out of the dirt and that’s equally as important to me in my dusty part of the country. My prop is nervous with 8.50s because of the dirt.

FWIW.

 

[Snowbirdxx]

If you operate in snow not deeper than 4 inch the 31 may work. Any deeper snow deserves skis. A couple of Huskys fit lost operating on wheels on snow. Specially in flat light. Flat light and snow is even on skis a challenge. Your because there is no contrast and you don,t know what you are hitting soon.

 

[Raven]

Hi Gust .. many thanks for your reply, it’s very helpful. This is my third Husky and first on ABW 31’s so I appreciate the benefit of your experience. I flew my first 2 Huskies on Goodyear 8.50’s and 26’s off both plowed grass and asphalt winter runways and they held up well but the asphalt seems less forgiving on 31’s so I’ll follow your advice and make the switch for the long winter ahead. Thanks again.

 

[belloypilot]

Winter has arrived with full force here in the Canadian Rockies and with back country grass options increasingly buried I am concerned about wear on my ABW 31" on plowed asphalt. To be honest I also find the little traction of these big tires makes for sporty taxing on snowy wet grass especially close to snowbanks. This makes my MT prop nervous. I just don't have the experience of operating ABW 31 on asphalt and the actual wear involved. I have Goodyear 8.5 x 6 as an option and wondering if it is wise to switch for winter? Thoughts and suggestions welcome, thank you.

I suspect the colder winter temperatures somewhat offset the increased wear rate from more asphalt operations in winter. I'd be thinking more about handling on snow/ice as you've noted. It's something to be aware of, but nothing that causes me too much concern and my ramp is a frozen lake most of the winter. I keep the 31s on until early January. By that time there is enough snow for plenty of ski fun, which usually stay on until April.

I run mine at 6-7 psi most of the time.

 

[Raven]

I agree 100% that skis are absolutely ideal for winter snow operations if you have them otherwise don’t even think about landing on snow on wheels without specific knowledge of current conditions and even then with great care. As an IFMGA mountain guide with years of helicopter and ski plane guiding experience in every snow condition you can imagine, the most dramatic landing I experienced was in New Zealand in a Cessna 185 on hydraulic wheel skis when the pilot forgot to pump the skis down landing on the Tasman Glacier. Our very short field landing caused us to flip inverted and we had to bivouac in a snow cave. Skis always = adventure!

 

[tbienz]

I run 850’s and Tom D’s RF skis in winter and 31’s in summer. The difficult part are the transition seasons when there is snow, but not enough to safely use skis. I’m still on 31’s now but I got my elk and such so I’m swapping this weekend. When landing at hunting camp three weeks ago, there was 5-8” snow over grass. It was not crusty but high moisture content. Took me 4 runs to get enough speed to take off at one site and it was easy at another only a few miles away, so the snow can be very hard to predict. I did have the tail rise twice during 2 of about 6 landings and had to add power during the roll-out.
If possible, I’d avoid the 31’s on pavement, especially if you’re talking about a full season ahead of your. I’ve had my 31’s about 7 years and they don’t seem to show much wear but I don’t taxi much off grass and hardly ever takeoff or land on hard surfaces.

 

[Snowbirdxx]

The most dramatic landing I has was in fresh powder snow 11.000 ft in an area, about 20% slope, behind a small ridge, where the snow could pile up in the lee side of the ridge. With around 1500 snow landings, being not very experienced, I picked up this spot and the plane started sinking in. When the fuselage entered the snow, I realized that I have little flotation, looked at the DG, kicked the rudder, pulled the carb heat, and made a 180 meanwhile the windhield was covered by snow, Airspeeed picked up, and like going through a layer of clowds the Husky arose from the powder like a Phoenix from the ash. Just airborne I passed a huge carvasse, that was not filled with snow. Had enough with glacierlandings for that day. Did not dare to push carb heat in. After Landing 20 min later the engine intake and the entire plane was snow free. Almost needed fresh underware.