Too much wind to taxi?

[tbienz]

Had two firsts in my Husky today, neither particularly good. My wife and I needed to attend a meeting in Steamboat (KSBS) and it was quite windy. We got up early as the flight there was to be against the wind. I was seeing highly variable ground speeds from 38 to 75kts, but usually around 50. 1/2 way there I got a ground wind report from another airport at only 9 kts tailwind so we descended. There was much turbulence at the transition zone but as long as I stayed about 200 feet off the deck, I was seeing 92kts GS. When we got to the last mountain range between us and our destination, I tried to climb to 10,000 to get over a pass and try as I might, my little Husky simply was not able to climb at full power and Vy. Whenever I approached the range, my VSI showed negative and we got pushed towards the forest. I tried climbing along the range but no dice. Finally I turned away and flew until I found rising air (wave), climbed to 1500 higher than the pass and turned toward KSBS and clawed our way across the pass showing 35 to 40kts at full power. Landed, did errands and meeting, then returned home with ground speeds up to 3x our outbound speed.
At home, ground winds were gusting to 32kts down the taxiway leading to my hangar. My personal rule on max wind for taxi is 30 (but I’ve never yet aborted a taxi) so I landed in the grass (directly into the wind, aligned with a hangar) to taxi up into the lee of a community hangar and left the plane there until tonight.
I was disappointed that the plane could not overcome the downdrafts enroute, but I guess any plane can meet its limits with enough wind.
What do you guys use as your maximum ground wind you are willing to turn your tail to while heading to your hangar during taxi?

 

[Gust Kalatzes]

Thomas I don’t know what a good answer is. I have taxied in winds 38 gusting to 42 once...West Yellowstone. Landing winds were 80 degrees to the runway and almost right on the tail to get off. Plane was sliding sideways a little on the asphalt at 2 mph taxi speed trying to get to the taxiway. Had it not been for the 200 lb passenger I’m not sure it could have been done. The turn away from the wind to get off the runway was barely possible and needed power, brake, etc. I was hoping the trees up wind would help and maybe they did.

Have seen 25 - 30 many times and would not call that terrifying...don’t like it but not terrifying.

Don’t they use tow chains for wind socks in Wyoming. If the tow chain is straight out it’s too much!

 

[Ksmith]

Dennis and I landed in Wendover Nevada one morning with winds about the same as Gust just described. Taxiing up the northwest runway two tiedowns I just about wore out my left brake. Got tied down facing downwind, went to eat and on arrival back to the airport the winds were still as strong, high 30s low 40s. Once untied we taxi downwind to the east. The seriously scary part was trying to turn south, to the right. Dennis was in front of me and attempted the turn first, it lifted his right wing and being the 20,000 hour tail wheel pilot he is, he spun it around quickly enough to avoid overturning. He said the heck with trying to get to the runway, and took off from the taxiway. After seeing that I was quite concerned that I could duplicate it but was able to.

for me it’s all about options, in taxiing back to my hanger at times I have gone across the infield to avoid that type of situation.

 

[tbienz]

Thanks for that data point Gust. At least with a pretty heavy cabin load, it seems the Husky can take more than I thought. Some of our airports have chains like that just as a joke.
For my old Cessna 210 on dry pavement, above 42kts direct crosswind on walking speed taxi it would chatter the tires and move sideways a bit so I set 45kts as a max. For the King Airs it’s 60kts, but we’ve only had to delay our landing once for winds above that as they are usually not steady. For the MU-2 I don’t know what it is as it’s basically a wingless brick once the wing shrinks. I read Tom D’s report on this site about his Iceland landing in the Mits but I’d just as soon not test it at that kind of wind!
For the Husky (and other taildraggers) I’ve read that above a certain wind, even with the correct control inputs, when turned 45deg into the wind as you make a downwind turn while taxiing, the plane can flip diagonally aft onto it’s back. I had to go around in Casper, WY a few years ago with winds 35 to 40 when a Supercub pilot stopped on the runway but would not turn onto the taxiway until the FBO staff came out and wing-walked him to the tie-downs, so I was just wondering how much is typically considered too much.
Many years ago when I first got my Husky I was still on 850’s and I tried to turn around on a steep soft beach with a strong on-shore wind. The uphill tire sunk into the sand as I turned away from the shore break to takeoff; the tail came up and I was on my nose. Happened pretty fast even when not really moving. Now, with more experience, readiness to pull back on the stick and hammer the throttle as well as high flotation tires, I don’t think that would happen to me, but above a certain point, I suppose too much wind is just too much regardless.

 

[tbienz]

Kerry, you posted while I was writing my response, thanks. Sounds a bit like the Draco incident but without the wreck!

 

[Gust Kalatzes]

Thanks for that data point Gust. At least with a pretty heavy cabin load, it seems the Husky can take more than I thought. Some of our airports have chains like that just as a joke.
For my old Cessna 210 on dry pavement, above 42kts direct crosswind on walking speed taxi it would chatter the tires and move sideways a bit so I set 45kts as a max. For the King Airs it’s 60kts, but we’ve only had to delay our landing once for winds above that as they are usually not steady. For the MU-2 I don’t know what it is as it’s basically a wingless brick once the wing shrinks. I read Tom D’s report on this site about his Iceland landing in the Mits but I’d just as soon not test it at that kind of wind!
For the Husky (and other taildraggers) I’ve read that above a certain wind, even with the correct control inputs, when turned 45deg into the wind as you make a downwind turn while taxiing, the plane can flip diagonally aft onto it’s back. I had to go around in Casper, WY a few years ago with winds 35 to 40 when a Supercub pilot stopped on the runway but would not turn onto the taxiway until the FBO staff came out and wing-walked him to the tie-downs, so I was just wondering how much is typically considered too much.
Many years ago when I first got my Husky I was still on 850’s and I tried to turn around on a steep soft beach with a strong on-shore wind. The uphill tire sunk into the sand as I turned away from the shore break to takeoff; the tail came up and I was on my nose. Happened pretty fast even when not really moving. Now, with more experience, readiness to pull back on the stick and hammer the throttle as well as high flotation tires, I don’t think that would happen to me, but above a certain point, I suppose too much wind is just too much regardless.

Thomas for me it is about load and if greater than 25-30 with a load I plan to use options like Kerry said. Over that amount I feel “luck” starts to play a bigger part. Maybe we need backup cameras!

I wouldn’t say it’s uncommon to find winds I could not out climb in the face of the mountains. I do just what you did and turned away to climb, and if possible use Sparky’s rule of half as high above as the mountain is high and some angle. I won’t test mine or the Husky’s ability to out climb a mountain simply because I expect rotors or more if I’m getting strong downdrafts close to the mountains. It’s as much about not getting beat to death to.

Beings were on wind I’m wondering about mountain waves? I don’t really know how dangerous they are or best way to escape them if needed.

I ran into some good ones just a little south of Rifle Colorado coming home from east side of the Rocky’s. Winds were howling and knew I was never going to out climb the Rocky’s between Denver and Price so headed north where they tapered off a little. I was at 12 or 13k msl cruising along and it felt like a water wave come up behind me lifting me 2000 fpm. Then of course I slid off the crest and airspeed fell by 40 kts and was still loosing altitude. I would regain the lost altitude on the next wave. This happened many times until they finally started to dissipate over the next 20 or 30 miles. Was nervous as hell for the first 2 cycles.

Have never seen them again since. There was no turbulence.

Thoughts?

 

[tbienz]

We have quite a bit of wave activity out here in the Wyoming/Colorado area. I’m sure there’s a big one off the Wasatch just east of you on windy days too. The turbulence is not usually too bad (unless you get the rotor) but they can definitely tax even a powerful aircraft to say nothing of something like a Husky. I no longer have it, but there is a photo somewhere of a 4 engine military prop transport in the Sierra Wave east of Minden, Nevada (famous for its wave for sailplanes) with all engines at idle and holding altitude so the vertical push (up and down) can be significant.
The other thing Iv’e seen on waves is pretty bad icing at the tops of the lenticular clouds, but I don’t go there in the Husky.
Yesterday on my flight, I’d say the winds aloft at 10,000 were around 55-65 knots. There was spindrift 100 feet high off the peaks, so much of what I was seeing was probably just mechanical turbulence off the peaks and maybe a bit of wave activity too. I didn’t really feel it was dangerous (as you can always turn to lower terrain) but it was annoying when you are at 2500 rpm and full power at 70mph IAS and you see a 500fpm descent with a GS of 35kts or so. Two weeks ago I was bucking a headwind going home and just for fun I decreased power and put out the flaps. I got my ground speed to zero and hovered for a while.
Because of the way waves work, I don’t think they would generally drive an aircraft into the ground as they would flatten out and run parallel to the ground the closer you got. The central core of a microburst from a thunderstorm is a different story but we don’t get those here in winter.
Based on your experience, maybe I’ll push my number to 35kts if I have a passenger and just keep going real slow with careful control inputs.

 

[Gust Kalatzes]

We have quite a bit of wave activity out here in the Wyoming/Colorado area. I’m sure there’s a big one off the Wasatch just east of you on windy days too. The turbulence is not usually too bad (unless you get the rotor) but they can definitely tax even a powerful aircraft to say nothing of something like a Husky. I no longer have it, but there is a photo somewhere of a 4 engine military prop transport in the Sierra Wave east of Minden, Nevada (famous for its wave for sailplanes) with all engines at idle and holding altitude so the vertical push (up and down) can be significant.
The other thing Iv’e seen on waves is pretty bad icing at the tops of the lenticular clouds, but I don’t go there in the Husky.
Yesterday on my flight, I’d say the winds aloft at 10,000 were around 55-65 knots. There was spindrift 100 feet high off the peaks, so much of what I was seeing was probably just mechanical turbulence off the peaks and maybe a bit of wave activity too. I didn’t really feel it was dangerous (as you can always turn to lower terrain) but it was annoying when you are at 2500 rpm and full power at 70mph IAS and you see a 500fpm descent with a GS of 35kts or so. Two weeks ago I was bucking a headwind going home and just for fun I decreased power and put out the flaps. I got my ground speed to zero and hovered for a while.
Because of the way waves work, I don’t think they would generally drive an aircraft into the ground as they would flatten out and run parallel to the ground the closer you got. The central core of a microburst from a thunderstorm is a different story but we don’t get those here in winter.
Based on your experience, maybe I’ll push my number to 35kts if I have a passenger and just keep going real slow with careful control inputs.

Thanks Thomas!

 

[Snowbirdxx]

Gust, waves are usually above the rotors and require a stable atmosphere. The flow in the waves is laminar in the rotors turbulent. Vertical speeds in rotors may reach 10.000 ft per minute. The turbulence can be so strong that maintaining attitude is impossible and the structural limits of most planes are exceeded.
In our mountain flying seminars I usually explain the flow by imagining what water would do. Anyone of us has been watching water flow down a creek over a rock. Behind in the rotors with a reverse flow then the upwave.

 

[bumper]

Minden, we love wave! Have been turned on my ear in rotor while flying my ex, Stemme S10. But it's common to "work" the rotor to reach the laminar flow. Once in that, if feels as smooth as a sheet of glass while going up. VSI will commonly indicate from a few hundred feet a minute to 2,000 fpm or more. But where there's strong lift, not far away is strong sink.

 

[David]

I cross the Sierras fairly often going to Nevada or Idaho or even to Nervino Airport (O02). Strong 50-90 mph winds are not uncommon. When I know there are winds like this, I always give myself at least 3,000 ft above the highest peak when crossing. That gives me a very reasonable emergency cushion to deal with up/down drafts.

 

[trapper]

I remember leaving Lee Vining a few years ago having to utilize two friends just to help turn my Husky into the wind as I could not taxi without lifting a wing. Crossing the Sierras going home I was actually flying backwards off and on! Had to go around near Reno just to get home.

 

[Glider]

A few years back I landed at Rockland Maine. I felt good after crabbing the plane to a tie down spot, good until I realized I was still flying the plane at the tie down with the engine ticking over... Just then three pilots from Penobscot Island Air surrounded the plane and tied me down. I then shut down the engine. 25 g 35 kts maybe?
Without there help my next option was to take off from the tie down and find someplace else to land with less wind or a building to hide behind.

 

[Bowser]

Where I live, 30kts + wind is common. Key to taxi safely in all quadrants, ailerons and elevators into wind (front quarters/rear quarters) and keep power on (1200 RPM works fine with the Husky). Propeller disc being 90 degree to the vertical stabiliser will counter act any tendencies the wind will have laterally and power ON will maintain the airflow on your tail in the right direction (nose to tail). Also you will be riding the brakes keeping a positive differential braking to help with direction. That is what I do.

 

[tbienz]

Cancelled my flight Monday (in other plane) due to gusts to 55kts at 50 degrees to the useable runway in 1/4mi vis (snow/freezing fog). We do get wind!
Given everybody’s relative comfort with winds above 30 for taxi, I’ll increase the little Husky’s personal minima. Thanks.

 

[Paul Collins]

Similar story. Landed at Tooele, Utah, and had a nice 55+ knot steady headwind down the runway from the south. Touched down in inches. Felt smart - until I realized I had to turn 90 degrees to get to any tie-down. Not so smart. Took off in a few feet and went over to KSLC. Touched down much the same and basically floated over to Atlantic FBO. Got help holding the wings until I got tied down - inside a hangar! Ground was laughing. Slept well.
Paul Collins
N337DP

 

[lowlevelops]

Landing gear configurations have quite a bit to do with how the airplane handles wind on the ground. Original Aviat gear on 8.50s is a lot different from extended gear on 31s. The increased AOA on the ground changes the handling characteristics and not necessarily for the good when the winds are getting serious. The proper positioning of the control surfaces is key, don’t get in a hurry and be ready to use what means necessary to get it point in the wind if things are starting to go wrong.

 

[johnaz]

Landing gear configurations have quite a bit to do with how the airplane handles wind on the ground. Original Aviat gear on 8.50s is a lot different from extended gear on 31s. The increased AOA on the ground changes the handling characteristics and not necessarily for the good when the winds are getting serious. The proper positioning of the control surfaces is key, don’t get in a hurry and be ready to use what means necessary to get it point in the wind if things are starting to go wrong.

Also remember the extended cub gear has a much wider track, so does make it better in crosswinds with the wider stance more stable. About 10" wider I think than stock. And the AOSS shocks do not let things move around or flex much like bungees do.
John

 

[tbienz]

I think that’s true of Seaplanes North gear and AOSS, but not the Aviat extended gear. I looked at my plane next to one with the Aviat extended gear. They had a greater elevation, thinner tubing and narrower track than my Seaplanes North setup. Not saying one is better, just different.

 

[Gust Kalatzes]

Will measure Aviat and Alaska gear tomorrow. Aviat definitely taller, smaller tubes.