Takeoff and Landing Techniques

[TheFlyingMouse]

ive been told that my old wing A-1 flies just like a Super Cub and the “improved” later model Husky flies different. Can’t say I know since I haven’t flown a Cub or a new Husky. But to me, my non-VG plane flies/stalls/lands in a very predictable and docile manner including with power off and full flaps.
If the newer planes are different in this way, perhaps that is just the side effect of being certified to a higher weight (with a change in the empennage)? Not sure, but it does seem As though a lot more owners of later model planes have the issue with full stall than the older planes. I thought it was just an issue of the heavier 200hp engine, but that doesn’t seem to be the case.

CG probably has an effect and it gets slightly better at lower gross weight as I burn fuel down, but is not fully resolved. I don’t really want to throw that much ballast in the back… Maybe if I could take it out of myself it’d be ok, haha. Better to learn to deal with it as-is, or change something about the empennage if it’s out of spec. I’ll have my mechanic look things over at first annual soon.

For your reference, I got my tailwheel training in a combination of PA-12 Super Cruiser, Decathlon, a couple of Citabrias, then transitioned to a 1998 A-1 on bush wheels (higher landing AOA). They all had “conventional” stall behavior that the instructors train you for (progressive stick back to hold off). This is the first time that I’ve run into an inability to achieve the 3 point attitude at idle power, and it also caught my ferry instructor by surprise once on the trip home.
A number of people have been saying that you should simply arrive with enough energy to get the tail down in a power off scenario. That’s the only thing that I have an issue with here. In my airplane, holding off just results in a tail low wheel landing whether you intended it or not. Ergo I need a technique to provide a 3 point option. I think that’s either approach with flaps 20, or reduce flaps from 30 to 20 while holding off like Kent and Kurt do.

 

[Ak Kurt]

As I previously mentioned, the answer to a lot of the issues brought up in this thread is in post #7. Re read post #7.

Kurt

 

[Jeb]

Thanks Kurt! I can do both (all 4 right?). My instructor told me to do 3 point for the first 50 hrs and like I said I alternated between power off and using power depending on conditions. That was good advice as wheels are less finicky. By getting proficient at 3 point, wheel landings and power are now tools rather than a crutch. I am grateful for good training and advice! Husky’s are amazing planes. I think it was a design choice to make the stall characteristics benign. Power and c/s prop are fantastic and also require more practice to master. I’m no master, but I feel proficient in the corndog and confident that I can identify my limits before I am in too deep. Fingers crossed
I’ll second the suggestion to go reread #7

 

[Jeb]

Re not wanting to put ballast at the rear…do you guys not permanently carry a kit with tools and emergency stuff? Put that at the back of the rear compartment. It doesn’t take much back there.

 

[TheFlyingMouse]

Re not wanting to put ballast at the rear…do you guys not permanently carry a kit with tools and emergency stuff? Put that at the back of the rear compartment. It doesn’t take much back there.

I do but I’m still putting it all together. Right now it’s about 10 pounds of very minimal survival gear and a ration brick. For now I keep it at the front of the aft baggage compartment because it’s difficult for me to reach all the way to the back. The hatchet is also less likely to become a missile in a crash that way.

Any way we look at it, we need to be able to land safely on a spot under all CGs we might fly at. Between Kurt’s post #7, Kent’s video of it, and thoughts about power/prop from Thomas, I think we have lots of ideas to play with.

To be honest, I don’t like the thought of always using power or prop settings to moderate the landing. There’s a big chance of reverting to habit in an emergency and having it just not work out.

Really appreciate everyone’s input here. Merry Christmas!

 

[johnaz]

I do but I’m still putting it all together. Right now it’s about 10 pounds of very minimal survival gear and a ration brick. For now I keep it at the front of the aft baggage compartment because it’s difficult for me to reach all the way to the back. The hatchet is also less likely to become a missile in a crash that way.

Any way we look at it, we need to be able to land safely on a spot under all CGs we might fly at. Between Kurt’s post #7, Kent’s video of it, and thoughts about power/prop from Thomas, I think we have lots of ideas to play with.

To be honest, I don’t like the thought of always using power or prop settings to moderate the landing. There’s a big chance of reverting to habit in an emergency and having it just not work out.

Really appreciate everyone’s input here. Merry Christmas!

Very hard to make it exact every time without slight bump of power at end. You will always have some bad landings if all power off type. And you will miss your mark more often than not without power bump. Or you are really an expert!!!
John

 

[TheFlyingMouse]

Very hard to make it exact every time without slight bump of power at end. You will always have some bad landings if all power off type. And you will miss your mark more often than not without power bump. Or you are really an expert!!!
John

We’re only talking about techniques for the final moments of flare to 3 point, right? I’d assume that the plane is roughly where you want it by then, barring a misjudgment of height. I’m not trying to land on anything shorter than 2000 feet any time soon. Long ways to go here.

 

[johnaz]

We’re only talking about techniques for the final moments of flare to 3 point, right? I’d assume that the plane is roughly where you want it by then, barring a misjudgment of height. I’m not trying to land on anything shorter than 2000 feet any time soon. Long ways to go here.

Yes, just need to add a slight touch to make it just right 3 point at times. I can lift off, no tail raise, at sea level in mine at 85', half tanks and just me, land in a bit more. Not quite like my supercub, but pretty close for a Husky.
John

 

[Kent Wien]

My empty weight CG is 75”. When I trim full aft (pre 2018 trim system) on short final, power off tail first landings are pretty easy. Even without retracting the flaps.

Perhaps my empty weight CG has something to do with it? I have 10 pounds of tools in the forward part of the aft baggage. Me flying solo. Tested it out yesterday.

And what a sky we had!

(edit: Just ran the numbers. Last night I was at 76.4”)

 

[TheFlyingMouse]

My empty weight CG is 75”. When I trim full aft (pre 2018 trim system) on short final, power off tail first landings are pretty easy. Even without retracting the flaps.

Perhaps my empty weight CG has something to do with it? I have 10 pounds of tools in the forward part of the aft baggage. Me flying solo. Tested it out yesterday.

And what a sky we had!

(edit: Just ran the numbers. Last night I was at 76.4”)

Beautiful sunset shot!

My empty weight CG is 74.5. With 50 gallons and solo, I’m at 75.7 and it moves forward as I burn fuel.

I’ll try moving my toolkit to the rear of the aft baggage next time up. 20 pounds back there should make it 76.8.

 

[Flying Dave]

Geez. I think ours is 72.8. Yet another reason for an MT….

 

[Husky101]

Thanks Kurt! I can do both (all 4 right?). My instructor told me to do 3 point for the first 50 hrs and like I said I alternated between power off and using power depending on conditions. That was good advice as wheels are less finicky. By getting proficient at 3 point, wheel landings and power are now tools rather than a crutch. I am grateful for good training and advice! Husky’s are amazing planes. I think it was a design choice to make the stall characteristics benign. Power and c/s prop are fantastic and also require more practice to master. I’m no master, but I feel proficient in the corndog and confident that I can identify my limits before I am in too deep. Fingers crossed
I’ll second the suggestion to go reread #7

Jeb, I am concerned about what you refer to as "the benign stall affect" of the Husky. The reason the aircraft doesn't break (usually doesn't break) during a power off stall, or a power off landing, is a direct result of the tail being stalled and the wing not stalled. The tail isn't big enough. It feels like the stall is benign or mushing. If you touch-down (hard) with lift remaining in the wing, and the tail stalled, you will likely begin a PIO or Pilot Induced Oscillation. The lift in the un-stalled wings exacerbates the bounce and the fun begins.....remember now you are pointed upward and the elevator is stalled. I suspect that at least half of the Husky loss of control accidents began with this PIO. To prevent the PIO carry a little bit of thrust throughout the landing. This added thrust over the tail will keep the tail flying long enough to allow the wing to slow another 3 MPH to it's stalling speed. If the wing is fully stalled on touchdown the aircraft will not PIO. Because the aircraft is slowed to its stalling speed on touchdown it lands in a shorter distance (with power) than with a power-off landing. Counter intuitive I know, but it is a fact. Carry a little power on landing and land in a shorter distance. Be safe. Jeff Welch Author "Husky 101-Flying The Husky".

 

[Jeb]

Thanks Jeff. Although the things you say are true, I think we were discussing practicing power off landings. You wouldn’t be doing yourself any favor to try this the first time with an actual deadstick.

 

[TheFlyingMouse]

The more I study this and practice, the more I realize that it’s just a characteristic of the design. There’s also lots of video of super cubs having the same problems, ergo it’s normal and we just have to fly it!

For a true power-off, my opinion is shifting towards tail low landings if you need full flaps, or Kent and Kurt’s technique of retracting flaps when the nose won’t come up anymore. The problem with the latter is I’ve had my flap handle lock button jam and take a minute to sort out in the air (wouldn’t retract on a go around). I’ll have to figure out what lubrication it needs.

Slight power-on provides the predictability needed, although I’m still working out exactly how much to leave in.

Lots of tools in the box compared to Citabrias and Super Cruisers. Gotta keep them all sharp.

Bonus is my wife liked her first flight in our Husky and now wants to go places!

 

[Jeb]

Ex

The more I study this and practice, the more I realize that it’s just a characteristic of the design. There’s also lots of video of super cubs having the same problems, ergo it’s normal and we just have to fly it!

For a true power-off, my opinion is shifting towards tail low landings if you need full flaps, or Kent and Kurt’s technique of retracting flaps when the nose won’t come up anymore. The problem with the latter is I’ve had my flap handle lock button jam and take a minute to sort out in the air (wouldn’t retract on a go around). I’ll have to figure out what lubrication it needs.

Slight power-on provides the predictability needed, although I’m still working out exactly how much to leave in.

Lots of tools in the box compared to Citabrias and Super Cruisers. Gotta keep them all sharp.

Bonus is my wife liked her first flight in our Husky and now wants to go places!

Excellent! We love flying together!

 

[Snowbirdxx]

Poor elevator authority on landing with engine on idle explained.

When coming in for landing at 55 mph and full flaps, take a look at the elevator tips, the Elevator is way up and delivers a downforce by getting hit by the slipsream of the prop. Once the power goes to idle, thisdownforce stops and the nose drops.

While the super cub with the jackscrew trim, is trimming the horizontal stab , which then has a much less AOA. The Huskys fixed horizontal stab is already almost stalled and delivers only little downforce. What it does is deliver drag.

VGs on the topside of the elevator won´t help, the only energy force is the slipstrean. Keep that in mind before you put the power to idle. Remember the nose will drop, regardledd how much you pull on the stick.

Adding an elevator with NACA0012 airfoil fixed all these problems. In cruise 3-4 mph airspeed is added fromm less drag. Elevator authority on slow flight is very precise and excellent.

 

[Kent Wien]

Thomas,

Does the modified stabilizer make the stall break harder? Right now there isn’t enough elevator authority to get a really pronounced break when at idle. I’d be curious if that’s due to the current stabilizer design.

 

[Snowbirdxx]

With the New stab I can reduce Up Elevator a lot. If I use Same deflection than with the old, the plane will Stall but recovers right away

 

[TheFlyingMouse]

This makes sense and matches gopro video I took this weekend of my landings. If you round out and try to do progressive back stick and idle power with full flaps, she stops pitching up around the point where the tail is still a good 6-8 inches off the ground. More up elevator just creates drag and drops her onto the mains with ensuing bounce.

With my rigging/prop/CG/etc., there is barely a break with flaps 20 at idle up at altitude, and for that I have to really hold the stick back to the stop. At flaps 30 there isn’t even a hint of stall or horn unless I yank the stick back. She just sinks.

I’m going to start playing with power settings on short final next time to figure out what works there to get the nose up enough, then move on to messing with the flaps after I have more consistency with power. The nearly 2 month hiatus for annual didn’t do me any favors.

 

[Snowbirdxx]

Flmouse you May increase Up Elevator by unscrewing the stop screw in the rear stickbottom facing Forward upwards. Wich a Bit of Power that helps getting the tail down.