Takeoff and Landing Techniques

[Scott Perdue]

I know this is a perennial 'discussion' amongst tailwheel pilots... but I've been playing around with the Husky to see what I like, what works for me. Turns out I rather like the techniques I used in my Skywagon (which had an ABI baby Bushwheel and shimmied like crazy if set on the ground too fast). My points are in video:

 

[Kent Wien]

Very true about a touch of power (100 rpm) helping to get the tail down for a 3-point when flying solo.

I’ve enjoyed full flap takeoffs so much that they’re my default setting unless it’s really gusty.

Great video Scott.

 

[belloypilot]

I don’t seem to have trouble getting tail wheel first or 3 point at idle power if I move my 25 lb standard kit into the tail baggage compartment, but I like a bit of power to decelerate nose high in ground effect before touching down. Of course, that assumes you have enough safe, flat ground ahead of your touchdown point that you can give up some distance in low ground effect. Many spots I fly into just feel safer coming in as slow and steep as possible and keeping as much flat ground in front of me after touch down as I can. Up to a point. When the nose blocks my view of the touch down point on short final and I’m depending on 11:00 - 13:00 peripheral vision at a bush strip or off airport in the wilderness I get a little antsy. I’m no Corsair carrier pilot, I can assure you .

Like others, I also found that deploying flaps on the take off roll is really effective, but sometimes a bit busy when the winds are grouchy and I’m at a rough, off airport spot. With my less than perfect technique I find the difference between popping the flaps when the tail comes up versus full flaps from the get go is usually 250’ versus 300’ when I’m close to gross. Sometimes that matters, sometimes it doesn’t. As I gain more experience I’m finding I’m comfortable with the ‘popping the flaps’ technique in more situations.

A few years back I had occasion to takeoff without rolling the tailwheel (questionable repair of a busted tail spring at an Arctic bush strip). Brake stand, lift the tail, ease off the brakes and on to full power without letting the tail touch. I had never done that before and it’s way easier with no flaps. Also, like most things in life, way better to practice that before the day you need it .

Cheers!

 

[belloypilot]

Oh, and that is a really good video. I like the camera angles and narrative that go along with it. Well done!

 

[Scott Perdue]

Thanks ya'll! I'll have to try your Technique Belloy, sounds interesting.

BTW, I just finished... literally... Putting GY26's on and taking the 31's off. Most of my operations are on pavement around here, so I'll save the 31's for serious outings. Now that I've got a technique I think it will only take about 45 minutes. Way easier than changing tires in the Skywagon! Rainy today so I can't try them out. (The Gy26's weighed 35lb each and the 31's came in at 47.5lb each).

Scott

 

[Ak Kurt]

Scott, the 26’s are great all around tires for combination pavement, grass & dirt operations. Save the 31’s for when you really need them. Dont worry, you wont wear those 26’s out, they wear like iron!

Kurt

 

[Ak Kurt]

Scott, nothing wrong with your technique however it is not the best for short field operations if that is your objective.

For short field take off use full flap, set full flaps, keep the stick back enough to keep the tailwheel from lifting off and no more, excess elevator causes drag. This will get you off the ground consistently shorter than any other technique. Notice consistently. Raising the tail like everyone seems to like doing and popping flaps while rotating in a Husky increases your take off distance almost every time. I have found that even if your timing is perfect with the raise the tail technique the distance is still longer than setting full flaps, keeping the tail on the ground and letting it fly off. That being said, this is NOT the technique to use in gusty, ratty winds or cross winds!

Landings…. Full flaps, nose heavy is tough to get the tail down for a 3 point landing as you just experienced. If you want to 3 point in this situation make sure you are trimmed properly and make a conscious effort to get the stick all the way back. From you video it looked like you had more elevator available. Lots of pilots think they have the stick all the way back but they actually dont, it takes a lot of muscle to get that last little bit. Now, as we know, less flap will help get the tail down in a 3 point landing, this is true in the Husky as well as the 185, I rarely land full flap in a 180 or 185 unless I have a load in the back.

So try 1 or 2 notches of flap in the Husky if you want to 3 point. Yes, your ground speed will be higher but not that much. If you have a passenger or baggage in the rear you wont need to reduce your flap setting since your cg id further aft, but in forward cg situations less flap really helps the 3 point landings. Try it in your Skywagon too, I think you will like it.

So now lets say you want the best of both worlds, slow touch down speed that 3 notches of flap gives you and the ease of getting the tail down for a 3 point landing that less flaps gives you. How do you do this? …. Think about it for a minute. You are still solo with a forward cg just like above. So what you are doing is moving the center of pressure/lift aft when you deploy flaps, this makes getting the tail down require more up elevator, too much speed and or up elevator and you balloon up, not enough speed and full up elevator is not sufficient to arrest your rate of descent or get the tail down to the 3 point attitude. So if that is true when we move the center of pressure aft, then the opposite must be true when we move the center of pressure forward. So when we are just right before touching down a few inches off the ground, 3 notches of flap, elevator all the way back, throttle idle, rate of sink arrested to zero and can’t get the tail down, what do you do if you want to get the tail down and touch down in the 3 point attitude? Dump some flap! Yep, dump some flap. This moves center of pressure forward which increases the weight of the tail which loweres the tail without ballooning. This works beautifully! You instantly reduce lift, put more weight on the wheels for better braking, reduce the chance of ballooning back up in the air due to a gust and reduces crow hopping on a rough or “dippy” runway.

Sit in your airplane and with the engine not running and practice reducing as much flap as you can from the full flap setting without looking at the handle. Keep your eyes forward looking ahead. Do this a gazillion times for “muscle memory”. Think of it as dry fire practice you would do in the tactile shooting world. After a while dumping flaps on landing will be second nature! Hope this helps.

Kurt

 

[Ak Kurt]

For take off in ratty gusty conditions, use less flap, use zero if you have enough room. Raise the tail as soon as it will come up, this reduces your angle of attack and makes you less vulnerable to a gust lifting one wing, accelerate, use crosswind control roll inputs and when you have plenty of speed for adequate control in the gusty conditions raise the nose sufficiently for the airplane to fly off the runway. Speed is king in bad gusty ratty conditions. Gives you more flow over the control surfaces.

 

[Scott Perdue]

Thanks for the pointers Kurt. I'll try them. I did not do 3 Pt in this video, two previous sorties showed me I didn't like it that much. I'll try it as you suggest and dump flaps.

The Flaps 30 tail on the ground takeoff is also the short book recommended procedure for the Skywagon. I never did like it much and when I measured it... it wasn't shorter than the tail raise/pop 30 technique. It staggered into the air. I felt the Husky doing the same thing... but I didn't measure it at all. Got some flying to do!

 

[belloypilot]

For short field take off use full flap, set full flaps, keep the stick back enough to keep the tailwheel from lifting off and no more, excess elevator causes drag. This will get you off the ground consistently shorter than any other technique. Notice consistently. Raising the tail like everyone seems to like doing and popping flaps while rotating in a Husky increases your take off distance almost every time. I have found that even if your timing is perfect with the raise the tail technique the distance is still longer than setting full flaps, keeping the tail on the ground and letting it fly off. That being said, this is NOT the technique to use in gusty, ratty winds or cross winds!

Dump some flap! Yep, dump some flap. This moves center of pressure forward which increases the weight of the tail which loweres the tail without ballooning. This works beautifully! You instantly reduce lift, put more weight on the wheels for better braking, reduce the chance of ballooning back up in the air due to a gust and reduces crow hopping on a rough or “dippy” runway.

Sit in your airplane and with the engine not running and practice reducing as much flap as you can from the full flap setting without looking at the handle. Keep your eyes forward looking ahead. Do this a gazillion times for “muscle memory”. Think of it as dry fire practice you would do in the tactile shooting world. After a while dumping flaps on landing will be second nature! Hope this helps.

Kurt

That's interesting. I used to think full flaps from standing start was just as effective and less busy but I did a bunch of testing about a year ago with my Husky with tripod mounted cameras and could consistently get 10-20% shorter takeoff rolls by lifting the tail somewhat before deploying full flaps. That said, the technique was most beneficial at lighter weights and near the middle or front half of the CG envelope. The further aft and heavier the less difference, in my testing. Do you think the parasitic drag of the up elevator is greater than the flaps and high AoA of the wing? That's a question, not a challenge. I'm really interested in learning more about this.

Because more than half of my takeoffs are from rough fields or essentialy off airport, even when heavy and aft I like to get the tail up just be kind to the back end. A bit of paranoia after having one or two extended coffee breaks from the dainty end of the airplane protesting my technique .

I have an old wing A1B with VGs, in case you think that changes anything.

This forum is great for sharing this kind of information. Thanks to you and Scott for this thread.

Mike

 

[Gust Kalatzes]

Great video Scott!

I’m trying to figure out a new to me Sky Wagon! Only about 15 hour TT so far. It seems to likes a little power like you mentioned, but we are not one with the force yet! I will also not complain about the Husky trim again either!

Thanks again for the video.

 

[GreggMotonaga]

Nice video. Thanks. Interesting that the friends you have talked to recommend 3 pointing. I fly with many husky pilots and none of us would say we are three pointers. Power on final using throttle to manage sink and nailing the touchdown point on the mains is more consistent in my experience than trying to wait for the plane to hit the 3 point attitude.

One of my truly gifted Husky-driver friends showed me a three point technique that is probably the best I've seen, but rarely use it since I don't three point. The important point is to carry energy prior to the flare. He hits short final with full flaps. Power is low to idle and the nose is lowered to maintain 70 mph and diving for a spot prior to the touchdown spot. Trim is rolled full aft and pressure is exerted forward on the stick to maintain the nose low attitude. Do not bleed off the energy. At the aim spot and 10 feet off the ground, the round out is relatively quick with power off and the stick is brought full aft (and to Kurts point, full aft). The key here is to maintain enough airspeed prior to the transition. It seems counterintuitive. Coming in slow is no good for a three pointer and you will undoubtedly have to settle for a two pointer unless you carry power. I had a 180 HP supercub and it was the same way. Like most planes though, with power, you can make any of them do a one pointer.

I totally agree with Kurt on the takeoff techniques and when to use less flaps. I too am not a flap popper. There is too much timing involved and associated inconsistency. Most routine takeoffs for me are: Flaps 30. Full power. Tail low until tires lift. Immediately push the nose down and keep the plane in ground effect while accelerating and raising the flaps in one continuous motion until off. Hit my climb speed and pitch up to maintain for the climbout. It all happens fast.

I noticed a few interesting things on the video. Is that your manifold pressure on the lower right? If so, it seems off compared to your throttle position. At 9:59, on your takeoff, I noticed that your trim is set full aft. Interestingly, it didn't seem to bother you. Was it seemingly heavy on the tail and you were having to push hard forward on the takeoff? If not, maybe your CG is off? I like having everything forward on short final and notice that you do too, except for the one approach you made at 5:45 with the mixture leaned a bit and the propeller out.

 

[Snowbirdxx]

I fully agree with Kurts takeoff

Scott, nothing wrong with your technique however it is not the best for short field operations if that is your objective.

For short field take off use full flap, set full flaps, keep the stick back enough to keep the tailwheel from lifting off and no more, excess elevator causes drag. This will get you off the ground consistently shorter than any other technique. Notice consistently. Raising the tail like everyone seems to like doing and popping flaps while rotating in a Husky increases your take off distance almost every time. I have found that even if your timing is perfect with the raise the tail technique the distance is still longer than setting full flaps, keeping the tail on the ground and letting it fly off. That being said, this is NOT the technique to use in gusty, ratty winds or cross winds!

Landings…. Full flaps, nose heavy is tough to get the tail down for a 3 point landing as you just experienced. If you want to 3 point in this situation make sure you are trimmed properly and make a conscious to get the stick all the way back. From you video it looked like you had more elevator available. Lots of pilots think they have the stick all the way back but they actually dont, it takes a lot of muscle to get that last little bit. Now, as we know, less flap will help get the tail down in a 3 point landing, this is true in the Husky as well as the 185, I rarely land full flap in a 180 or 185 unless I have a load in the back.

So try 1 or 2 notches of flap in the Husky if you want to 3 point. Yes, your ground speed will be higher but not that much. If you have a passenger or baggage in the rear you wont need to reduce your flap setting since your cg id further aft, but in forward cg situations less flap really helps the 3 point landings. Try it in your Skywagon too, I think you will like it.

So now lets say you want the best of both worlds, slow touch down speed that 3 notches of flap gives you and the ease of getting the tail down for a 3 point landing that less flaps gives you. How do you do this? …. Think for a minute about it. You are still solo with a forward cg just like above. So what you are doing is moving the center of pressure/lift aft when you deploy flaps, this makes getting the tail down require more up elevator, too much speed and or up elevator and you balloon up, not enough speed and full up elevator is not sufficient to arrest your rate of descent or get the tail down to the 3 point attitude. So if that is true when we move the center of pressure aft, then the opposite must be true when we move the center of pressure forward. So when we are just right before touching down a few inches off the ground, 3 notches of flap, elevator all the way back, throttle idle, rate of sink arrested to zero and can’t get the tail down, what do you do if you want to get the tail down and touch down in the 3 point attitude? Dump some flap! Yep, dump some flap. This moves center of pressure forward which increases the weight of the tail which loweres the tail without ballooning. This works beautifully! You instantly reduce lift, put more weight on the wheels for better braking, reduce the chance of ballooning back up in the air due to a gust and reduces crow hopping on a rough or “dippy” runway.

Sit in your airplane and with the engine not running and practice reducing as much flap as you can from the full flap setting without looking at the handle. Keep your eyes forward looking ahead. Do this a gazillion times for “muscle memory”. Think of it as dry fire practice you would do in the tactile shooting world. After a while dumping flaps on landing will be second nature! Hope this helps.

Kurt

I fully agree with Kurts takeoff technique for the shortest takeoff by leaving the tailwheel down.
In gusty winds I never use more that 20 flaps on landing , for better gust penetration.

However when landing on an airport with a strong X wind , I fly the final offset to the downwind side and then land diagonally on the runway, facing more into the wind. Touchdown asap when over the shoulder of the runway. Ideally there is a taxiway on the other side. This way the X windcomponent is decreasing a lot and runway occupation time is minimized.

 

[Scott Perdue]

Great video Scott!

I’m trying to figure out a new to me Sky Wagon! Only about 15 hour TT so far. It seems to likes a little power like you mentioned, but we are not one with the force yet! I will also not complain about the Husky trim again either!

Thanks again for the video.

Gust, I had my Skywagon for about 10 years and frankly I'll admit that I was probably 50/50 on smooth landings. The worst thing is the Spring gear... you have to be very careful not to load it suddenly. I hear folks complain about the trim system on the Husky... the Skywagon takes a HUGE amount of trim from cruise to landing. It is very much trim airplane and can get you into trouble. I don't find the Husky to be terrible... The more I fly it it seems the less I use it. We'll see how that progresses.

gunny

 

[Scott Perdue]

Nice video. Thanks. Interesting that the friends you have talked to recommend 3 pointing. I fly with many husky pilots and none of us would say we are three pointers. Power on final using throttle to manage sink and nailing the touchdown point on the mains is more consistent in my experience than trying to wait for the plane to hit the 3 point attitude.

One of my truly gifted Husky-driver friends showed me a three point technique that is probably the best I've seen, but rarely use it since I don't three point. The important point is to carry energy prior to the flare. He hits short final with full flaps. Power is low to idle and the nose is lowered to maintain 70 mph and diving for a spot prior to the touchdown spot. Trim is rolled full aft and pressure is exerted forward on the stick to maintain the nose low attitude. Do not bleed off the energy. At the aim spot and 10 feet off the ground, the round out is relatively quick with power off and the stick is brought full aft (and to Kurts point, full aft). The key here is to maintain enough airspeed prior to the transition. It seems counterintuitive. Coming in slow is no good for a three pointer and you will undoubtedly have to settle for a two pointer unless you carry power. I had a 180 HP supercub and it was the same way. Like most planes though, with power, you can make any of them do a one pointer.

I totally agree with Kurt on the takeoff techniques and when to use less flaps. I too am not a flap popper. There is too much timing involved and associated inconsistency. Most routine takeoffs for me are: Flaps 30. Full power. Tail low until tires lift. Immediately push the nose down and keep the plane in ground effect while accelerating and raising the flaps in one continuous motion until off. Hit my climb speed and pitch up to maintain for the climbout. It all happens fast.

I noticed a few interesting things on the video. Is that your manifold pressure on the lower right? If so, it seems off compared to your throttle position. At 9:59, on your takeoff, I noticed that your trim is set full aft. Interestingly, it didn't seem to bother you. Was it seemingly heavy on the tail and you were having to push hard forward on the takeoff? If not, maybe your CG is off? I like having everything forward on short final and notice that you do too, except for the one approach you made at 5:45 with the mixture leaned a bit and the propeller out.

Thanks, Gregg. For the most part I prefer Wheel landings. I'll try out your 3 Pt technique, it does seem counter-intuitive.

I've been popping the Flaps for so long (The Skywagon), that it just feels natural to me. I'll test it to see what the results are later. I just put GY26's.... gotta explore that difference right now.

I have found that I'm somewhere around takeoff for trim in the landing phase and after the Skywagon (which had a forward CG empty) I don't find the stick forces that significant. Regarding power settings... When I am doing pattern work I generally don't change the prop/mixture. If I enter the pattern from Cruise I leave them alone... for me a Go-Around is Mixture/ Prop/ Throttle (conversely reducing power is Throttle/ Prop/ Mixture).

 

[Scott Perdue]

I fully agree with Kurts takeoff

I fully agree with Kurts takeoff technique for the shortest takeoff by leaving the tailwheel down.
In gusty winds I never use more that 20 flaps on landing , for better gust penetration.

However when landing on an airport with a strong X wind , I fly the final offset to the downwind side and then land diagonally on the runway, facing more into the wind. Touchdown asap when over the shoulder of the runway. Ideally there is a taxiway on the other side. This way the X windcomponent is decreasing a lot and runway occupation time is minimized.

I have done that before in the Stearman for takeoff.... once I was on a 300' wide runway with 20G30 almost direct cross.... Nose into the wind on a taxiway... cleared for takeoff just went. Got off well before the side of the runway. I might have to try your technique for landing.

 

[johnaz]

Kurt is right on the takeoff, shortest is full flap tail down, just back pressure to lift off.
John

 

[belloypilot]

Sounds like I’d better practice my full flap take off technique!

 

[Snowbirdxx]

Scott,


your MP indicator is short before having a failure. You should remove it, unscrew the fitting, clean the inlet orifice with brake cleaner or fuel. Then unscrew the slotted srew in the orifice 1/2 turn. Reassemble. If you want you may cut the MP line and add a inline fuel filter from NAPA Aerospace to that line. This will keep dirt out of the MP indicator in the future and due to the higher volume dampen the indication a bit.

 

[Scott Perdue]

I have a CGR-30P on order. So, it will be replaced soon. The funny thing is it is in the logbook as being changed a year ago. You must be right about dirt or something.

Scott