Takeoff and Landing Techniques

[trapper]

Calm wind suckered me in. Ill stick with my usual techniques that have served me well. A few more feet on the landing roll is fine for me as I don't typically need to land that short anyway!

 

[Gust Kalatzes]

Trapper what I thought you were describing was a steep approach with a burst of power to arrest the descent in the flare.

I was taught a similar technique in an Idaho mountain flying course years ago and like it but it requires a lot of practice (for me anyway). Done right it’s very short but done wrong it can create a problem. The technique was to descend at 55 indicated (full gross 2000 lbs old wing B), 10-11 inches and a good burst of power to arrest the descent during the flare. Once touched down it’s done flying. If power burst timing is wrong it will either hit pretty hard or lengthen the landing distance quite a bit.

I believe there is wisdom in the steep approach over trees, rivers, etc because rarely, if ever, would it require near full power to escape a good downer to make the end of the runway. I still use the steeper approach but not exactly what’s described above because 99% of recognized strips are plenty long.

 

[belloypilot]

One time I picked a calm, cool early summer morning to practice that technique. I tested some advice from a friend that when clearly behind the power curve on a steep approach you can arrest the descent rate with some forward stick. Makes sense, and it worked well when I tried it, but it feels counterintuitive at first. Took some practice for me.

 

[trapper]

Trapper what I thought you were describing was a steep approach with a burst of power to arrest the descent in the flare.

I was taught a similar technique in an Idaho mountain flying course years ago and like it but it requires a lot of practice (for me anyway). Done right it’s very short but done wrong it can create a problem. The technique was to descend at 55 indicated (full gross 2000 lbs old wing B), 10-11 inches and a good burst of power to arrest the descent during the flare. Once touched down it’s done flying. If power burst timing is wrong it will either hit pretty hard or lengthen the landing distance quite a bit.

I believe there is wisdom in the steep approach over trees, rivers, etc because rarely, if ever, would it require near full power to escape a good downer to make the end of the runway. I still use the steeper approach but not exactly what’s described above because 99% of recognized strips are plenty long.

Thats exactly what I did landing. If a guy could perfect it which I am sure some have it would would be the way to go. Ill keep practicing on a grass strip and try to get competent at it. I could not believe how short I landed with no brakes

 

[belloypilot]

Are either of you able to use that technique and without landing tail wheel first or 3 point? I find the need for the shortest of short field landings often comes with rough conditions where I’m also trying to be kind to the dainty end of the airplane.

 

[trapper]

I was a 3 point attitude. I have 31's on my plane currently with the BBW. Going to keep practicing it in calm wind situations. I think it will be my preferred way if its not too rough. I usually wheel land my Husky

 

[Scott Perdue]

I usually wheel land my Husky as well. I just released a video on Short Takeoff technique and Turnback Exercise:

 

[Gust Kalatzes]

Are either of you able to use that technique and without landing tail wheel first or 3 point? I find the need for the shortest of short field landings often comes with rough conditions where I’m also trying to be kind to the dainty end of the airplane.

I land 3 point with the technique above. I also use the 3 point or tail low on the shortest of short fields which are usually not runways.

 

[Ak Kurt]

Scott, you are way over complicating the take off. IF your objective is to get off the ground in the shortest distance CONSISTENTLY and if winds and thermal conditions allow set full flaps, add power, keep tailwheel on the ground, let airplane fly off, immediately but smoothly lower the nose, accelerate, retract flaps and climb out at desired speed. Easy, no timing technique needed. This will consistently get you off the ground in the shortest distance possible.

Kurt

 

[Snowbirdxx]

Scott, next time when you do engine failiure training, pull the prop immediately all the way out. You will get a total differnt airplane.

 

[Roadbikedds]

Scott, nothing wrong with your technique however it is not the best for short field operations if that is your objective.

For short field take off use full flap, set full flaps, keep the stick back enough to keep the tailwheel from lifting off and no more, excess elevator causes drag. This will get you off the ground consistently shorter than any other technique. Notice consistently. Raising the tail like everyone seems to like doing and popping flaps while rotating in a Husky increases your take off distance almost every time. I have found that even if your timing is perfect with the raise the tail technique the distance is still longer than setting full flaps, keeping the tail on the ground and letting it fly off. That being said, this is NOT the technique to use in gusty, ratty winds or cross winds!

Landings…. Full flaps, nose heavy is tough to get the tail down for a 3 point landing as you just experienced. If you want to 3 point in this situation make sure you are trimmed properly and make a conscious to get the stick all the way back. From you video it looked like you had more elevator available. Lots of pilots think they have the stick all the way back but they actually dont, it takes a lot of muscle to get that last little bit. Now, as we know, less flap will help get the tail down in a 3 point landing, this is true in the Husky as well as the 185, I rarely land full flap in a 180 or 185 unless I have a load in the back.

So try 1 or 2 notches of flap in the Husky if you want to 3 point. Yes, your ground speed will be higher but not that much. If you have a passenger or baggage in the rear you wont need to reduce your flap setting since your cg id further aft, but in forward cg situations less flap really helps the 3 point landings. Try it in your Skywagon too, I think you will like it.

So now lets say you want the best of both worlds, slow touch down speed that 3 notches of flap gives you and the ease of getting the tail down for a 3 point landing that less flaps gives you. How do you do this? …. Think for a minute about it. You are still solo with a forward cg just like above. So what you are doing is moving the center of pressure/lift aft when you deploy flaps, this makes getting the tail down require more up elevator, too much speed and or up elevator and you balloon up, not enough speed and full up elevator is not sufficient to arrest your rate of descent or get the tail down to the 3 point attitude. So if that is true when we move the center of pressure aft, then the opposite must be true when we move the center of pressure forward. So when we are just right before touching down a few inches off the ground, 3 notches of flap, elevator all the way back, throttle idle, rate of sink arrested to zero and can’t get the tail down, what do you do if you want to get the tail down and touch down in the 3 point attitude? Dump some flap! Yep, dump some flap. This moves center of pressure forward which increases the weight of the tail which loweres the tail without ballooning. This works beautifully! You instantly reduce lift, put more weight on the wheels for better braking, reduce the chance of ballooning back up in the air due to a gust and reduces crow hopping on a rough or “dippy” runway.

Sit in your airplane and with the engine not running and practice reducing as much flap as you can from the full flap setting without looking at the handle. Keep your eyes forward looking ahead. Do this a gazillion times for “muscle memory”. Think of it as dry fire practice you would do in the tactile shooting world. After a while dumping flaps on landing will be second nature! Hope this helps.

Kurt

thank you for the analysis and advice, will try that next time I fly solo...

 

[Larson]

Scott- can I ask what the control immediately to the left of your propeller pitch control is in the cockpit, Is that an oil cooler shutter control?

Good on you for doing a video clip and posting.

 

[Scott Perdue]

Lars, indeed that is the Gate 9 oil cooler flap control.

 

[Scott Perdue]

Thanks for the pointer Tom. Actually I plan to do another video comparing different techniques (flaps, more aggressive maneuvers, prop pull (one issue there is drag/oil pressure availability). This is an extension of the Turnback Exercise I proposed in the Bonanza video I did. I think this maneuver should be practiced... but risks mitigated!

Thanks,
Scott

 

[trapper]

The Gate 9 oil cooler is a must in cold climates. I use mine on every flight in winter temps

 

[Larson]

Lars, indeed that is the Gate 9 oil cooler flap control.

Makes sense- have heard about it, but never seen one.
We don’t really get cold enough in this part of the world for oil to be really cold. Cooling lip is a must here.

thanks again for posting
Since this thread has opened, I have gone out and refreshed myself at the different techniques- well worthwhile

 

[Scott Perdue]

Excellent Lars! That's what its all about!

 

[Peterpannier]

Scott,
I experimented the other day with pulling full flap when at flying speed to get airborne. Your suggestion was to start with stage 2 and then step to stage 3 (with aft stick) when the tail comes up. I'd be interested on your thoughts on starting at stage 1 to reduce drag. I tried it and the plane seemed to launch earlier, but perhaps there is reasoning in starting at stage 2. Certainly makes for less leaning to grab the flap lever!

 

[johnaz]

The fowler type flaps on the Husky are mostly all lift, no tail raise needed. 3 point takeoff is shortest. As you move forward lift is created, and then just slight back pressure and lift off.
Just try to lower the nose when landing and see how impossible it is to make your spot, just floats on past. Have to have nose up, 3 point attitude to make your spot to plop it on, lower the nose and you float on past. All lift on flaps when any speed increase, so correct attitude is the key.

 

[JPB]

Scott, I’m fortunate enough to live in the back country and fly my Husky everyday the weathers cooperates. My aircraft is a 2000 A1B with the following performance additions. MT Ultra, VGs, SGS, and Goodyear 26s. My takeoff procedure is exactly as Kurt has previously outlined. I have proven to myself this technique provides the shortest take off distance over any other. My procedure for all landings is pick my spot, full flaps, 55 mph approach speed, steep and stable, slight touch of throttle at the round out, stick is full back, full stall, tail wheel touches slightly before mains throttle to idle, flaps up. This makes for an excellent landing at minimum speed requiring minimum runway. Give it a try and let me know what you think.
Jon