Three point landing advice

[Snowbirdxx]

I just dont like the approach with a fully aft trimmed plane. My favorite is to have it trimmed for whaht I need and not, tailheavy so I need stickforces to maintain whatever I want. The whole Idea of having a trim is to maintain a certain speed.

 

[johusky]

Would be interested in knowing
Approach indicated airspeed
sink rate

I worked on three points for the first time today and couldn’t believe how much shorter I was landing. I found on one landing that I had trimmed all the way nose up and thought that’s not good.

wether I’m flying the husky or my Bonanza I have always stop looking at the airspeed once I’m over the runway and transitioning to flair. Like the idea flying down long runway to get sight angle

 

[Proteus]

If I'm three pointing I nearly always trim all the way nose up on short final, I find this helps me get the elevator fully back and I like the feel (possibly because I'm used to it) For the tail low wheel, I'm maybe not full nose up but pretty close, I tend to just do it by feel on final.

 

[Flying Dave]

For those of you who have flown both is full nose up trim with the old trim system about the same as with the new? Have yet to fly a new one.

 

[johnaz]

For those of you who have flown both is full nose up trim with the old trim system about the same as with the new? Have yet to fly a new one.

I have one old one and one new trim. One does not have to fight the stick with new, so easy to hold back amount needed to 3 point and somewhat ignore trim wheel. On old one I never go full nose up trim, like to have some feel left. Never know when you need some nose down at last minute, easy to move stick forward a bit or just relax pressure.
John

 

[GreggMotonaga]

There is a significant difference in the required elevator position when achieving the three point attitude with power and without due to the increased effectiveness of the elevator when energized with engine power.

When three pointing without power, you will need to arrive with enough airspeed that the elevator is energized. You do not want to arrive 30 feet above the ground with no power and on the ragged edge. You will not achieve a three point attitude. In my airplane at least, I need to aim to a point short of my intended touchdown spot at about 65-70 at idle. I know, it does seem fast. I will then make the round out and start pulling on the stick until I end up with the stick fully aft against the stop when I touch three point. The deceleration is adequate and I don't feel as if I float excessively. I had a very experienced Husky instructor tell me once that he would occasionally have women trim full aft and push against the elevator when on short final because the final pull of the stick all the way back for some is hard if the trim is not set aft and is fighting them. I personally can set the trim in the glide and then pull against the bungees well enough so that I don't need to trim it aft.

When three pointing with power, you can arrive more slowly because the elevator is being energized by the propeller and not by excessive airspeed. My trim is definitely not near full aft when three pointing with power. In fact, sometimes if I have the trim set for the approach, but my power is lower than what I need for the ultimate touchdown, I find that when I add power back in, I need to trim forward unless I want to push against the bungees, but I don't prefer that feeling at touchdown. I like to feel the need to pull back on the stick.

Power is a game changer and also a crutch at times. Know how to get the plane to the correct attitude without power. I believe you will find you need to arrive faster, but that the deceleration happens quickly enough as you transition and start pulling back on the stick. Also know how to arrive at the correct attitude with power. The elevator is much more effective and therefore your stick position will naturally be more forward.

All of my Husky experience is in a new wing 2006 A-1B.

 

[johnaz]

There is a significant difference in the required elevator position when achieving the three point attitude with power and without due to the increased effectiveness of the elevator when energized with engine power.

When three pointing without power, you will need to arrive with enough airspeed that the elevator is energized. You do not want to arrive 30 feet above the ground with no power and on the ragged edge. You will not achieve a three point attitude. In my airplane at least, I need to aim to a point short of my intended touchdown spot at about 65-70 at idle. I know, it does seem fast. I will then make the round out and start pulling on the stick until I end up with the stick fully aft against the stop when I touch three point. The deceleration is adequate and I don't feel as if I float excessively. I had a very experienced Husky instructor tell me once that he would occasionally have women trim full aft and push against the elevator when on short final because the final pull of the stick all the way back for some is hard if the trim is not set aft and is fighting them. I personally can set the trim in the glide and then pull against the bungees well enough so that I don't need to trim it aft.

When three pointing with power, you can arrive more slowly because the elevator is being energized by the propeller and not by excessive airspeed. My trim is definitely not near full aft when three pointing with power. In fact, sometimes if I have the trim set for the approach, but my power is lower than what I need for the ultimate touchdown, I find that when I add power back in, I need to trim forward unless I want to push against the bungees, but I don't prefer that feeling at touchdown. I like to feel the need to pull back on the stick.

Power is a game changer and also a crutch at times. Know how to get the plane to the correct attitude without power. I believe you will find you need to arrive faster, but that the deceleration happens quickly enough as you transition and start pulling back on the stick. Also know how to arrive at the correct attitude with power. The elevator is much more effective and therefore your stick position will naturally be more forward.

All of my Husky experience is in a new wing 2006 A-1B.

Gregg, You have it pretty correct. Different when with slight power. To me one cannot gauge it accurately enough each time without power, never quite the same each time depending on loading, speeds, etc., just near touchdown like you say.
But you do not fight bungees, it is a big spring! Can be lessened with addition of an extension link so not fighting as hard. Thomas has posted on that, relieves some of the pressure at full pull.
John

 

[joemcd]

One thing that has not been mentioned yet is the model of propeller. At idle with the airplane slowed down, I have found that the 3 blade prop blanks out airflow over the horizontal and elevator the most. My Trailblazer blanked out more airflow than my 2 blade MT. The 2 blade MT seems to blank out more airflow than the stock Hartzell. I think that some configurations just land better with a little power.

 

[airplanebrad]

One thing that has not been mentioned yet is the model of propeller. At idle with the airplane slowed down, I have found that the 3 blade prop blanks out airflow over the horizontal and elevator the most. My Trailblazer blanked out more airflow than my 2 blade MT. The 2 blade MT seems to blank out more airflow than the stock Hartzell. I think that some configurations just land better with a little power.

I’ve had all the prop combos minus the metal ones, I’ve not noticed this....

 

[Ak Kurt]

Years ago one of the Husky test pilots (I think it was Mark Heiner) told me a bit of power at round out and flare helps get the tail down, about 50-100 RPM is all that is needed. The additional RPM isn't producing thrust as much as it is allowing otherwise blocked airflow to flow over tail surfaces.

Kurt

 

[groshel]

I agree with johnaz and joemcd comments. Someone on the board ( Thomas D. I think) previously posted about raising idle about that amount... I think to counter either the lack of flow over elevator or the drag of the flat disc.

I started on a Husky with a metal Hartzell and got mine plane with a 2 blade MT fitted and noticed the difference right off the bat. For me landings without power are no where near as consistent as one with a touch of power.

And I’ve just started to forget about trimming full act...I rather have it in trim down final and have to pull a bit more in the flare.

Chris

 

[Snowbirdxx]

If someone wants to fly the final slow, below 60 mph and in idle, leave the prop set for 2000 rpm cruise. The plane glides nicer and roundout is managable without a tad of extra power. It also depensa on your odle setting and flat pitch prop setting, plus CG etc..

There are just too many ways to butcher a greaser landing.

 

[tbienz]

I use a bit of power on the approach. If it is a routine landing next to an actual runway, I use 55mph IAS for 3-point, 60mph for wheel landing. If I'm doing a difficult back-country spot, I'll do a test stall, add 5mph and come in at that speed. Aim point is about 50-75 feet before intended touchdown point (if no trees). Flare and pull power as wheels are about to touch. 3 point/stick full back if skis. Tail-low two point with full back stick after landing if rough with brakes. Tail-low two point with stick immediately forward after touchdown to raise tail for forward visibility, then brakes balanced with elevator if LZ is narrow with obstacles that must be missed. '95 A-1 with 210MT, 31"/ABI tailwheel in summer, 850's/RF8001 and tail-ski in winter. I trim to neutralize force on stick on the fly and don't pre-set trim for landing.